is New BG Points System fair?

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SystemViper
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by SystemViper »

Yooo @Crashtech, I'm not going anywhere, I think BG is a work in progress and as always I try to express my feelings, sometimes I do it right and sometimes I get "Triggered" but I am growing and trying to get better.

Where I strongly disagree with the points situation, I believe that it will work itself out overtime, just because I can't be competitive in the BG gaming system doesn't mean i am going anywhere, just means I will sit on the sidelines and see how this saga plays out.
I almost posted my dissatisfaction on the discord but I felt that BG has forums for this kinda discussion and that it affects everyone so I posted here.

Thanks
SV
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by Skillz »

I will be home from work to address all these issues in a few hours.
Do not send me PMs. The PM system here doesn't notify like it's supposed. Contact me through Discord (link at top) or post in the forums here. I check those regularly. At least until I figure out the PM notification problem.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by crashtech »

Who is to say that there won't be more changes by the end of the year? It seems more likely than not.

For my part, I think that any mechanism that encourages participation in more projects is good, unless doing so presents a clearly articulable security risk.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by SystemViper »

Point taken, IEverythign changes so I agree with that. Anything that encourages more participation is good but it's not always a good thing for competition, but...

For me if it inhibits my ability to crunch like I have been since I started, by choosing the projects I run.


SV
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by Skillz »

SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm This is me speaking and I only represent me,


Well chips starting to fall, it's very hard for me to be involved with a competition which forces teams and members to run programs which we do not support or which I feel irrelevant based on the programs goals.
So based on the advice of a spokesman for BG I have chosen to opt out of competition on the BG site.
I have done this because I feel the new points system is unfair and goes against the basic idea of you crunch what you believe in.

To have any chance of being competitive I would have to get more hardware and run most/all programs.
I crunch to support science that I feel is valuable and not programs that a gaming site forces me to run in order to be competitive on their platform, it's that simple.
So you want to be competitive in a competition while only running a select few of the challenges/games on the competition? Show me any sport or game where you can opt out of competitions, games, etc... and expect to be in the top. It doesn't exist.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm So I have opted out of the competition.

What is a simple definition of competition? From EB
1. [noncount] a : the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success) that someone else is also trying to get or win : the act or process of competing. The school fosters an atmosphere of competition rather than cooperation.
Show me where is says competing in half the events? If you are trying to win in any event, then you're gonna play all the events and do the best that you can in all of them. Regardless of what kind of event that is.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm - I refuse to change my values in order to conform to a competition that doesn't allow me to chose what I want to run and still be competitive.
Again, as I said before. You don't want to participate in BG because if you aren't winning then you aren't having fun. What about the people who only want to crunch on medical projects? Or only on math projects? or only on space projects? I am sure they don't feel obligated to crunch projects they don't want to just because they want to be in the top overall. Why should they? Why should you? What's wrong with competing on the projects you care for individually? Just because it doesn't let you take the top spots overall?
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm - I refuse to run in a competition that "holds me back" as stated by a BG representative.
You are holding yourself back. Does BG prevent you from running all projects? Nope. That's your personal decision. Not mine, not BG.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm - Since the attitude of BG as stated is "no one is forcing you to do anything. compete or not, it makes no difference."
so my "no difference" is to opt out.
I like how you are just reaching for things for an argument that you contradict yourself in with every post and action you make. I am not forcing anyone to do or run anything they don't want. You want to be competitive on only a few projects, well guess what. Each one of those projects have their own standings. So you can be competitive in them all you want.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm - I accept that the Russia programs is a personal choice, so I pushed thru that decision to allow all "Russian" projects even though I didn't want to support them, but in doing so I had to go against my beliefs to be competitive.
Again, because if you aren't winning you aren't having fun?
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm I tried to balance that situation with rationalizations and still run some Russian projects if it could help me be competitive.
If it could help you win. Because winning is everything. Right?
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pmWell it's time to put that problem to bed. I choose to NOT run ANY russian projects. Period.
Ahh that felt good, so another reason to "opt out" with this games site (BG) if you don't run every project you can't compete, so it's time to stop competing here and get back to my core, FUCK russia!
I have no objection to any of this. Do what you want.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm If a games site like BG is fostering a event that forces people to choose between their beliefs, crunching goals and hinders their ability to be competitive, there is only one solution.
You keep blaming BG for your personal choices. It's not BG choice. It is your's and you made it. Stop trying to blame everyone on what you CHOOSE to do.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pmI look forward to when more members understand what is really happening but I also believe that BG management is trying to put out the best product and has shown excellent effort in that way but just saying that they are trying to differentiate themselves from the FB and thing that is a positive, sometimes just being different isn't a positive.
This is one of the only reasons why I am replying too all this.

BG is not trying to do anything as you are implying. People can choose to partake in whatever project they want. We merely pull the stats and compare them to anyone else doing the same.

Formula-BOINC is similar, but so is PG. Why aren't you referencing them? We're copying their points structure almost to a T. What about the Pentathlon? I got some ideas I am going to be using from the Pentathlon in the works as well. Should you start comparing us to the Pentathlon then?
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pmWell I'll keep watching BG but I said my peace. I will try hard to have any reasonable conversation without being "Triggered" for life is a evolution and growth is necessary.
Please do. You should know me well enough to know I am a reasonable guy. I can talk and work things out. BG is a BETA site that I am working on. What the site looks like now most definitely wont be the finished product. I will continue to change, alter, add, remove, or do whatever is necessary for everyone who crunches BOINC to enjoy the competition here regardless if you have a small datacenter in your home or a single Raspberry Pi crunching projects. You'll be able to compete within' your own ranks from people or teams who have similar hardware as you.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:04 pm Bionic Games "Being the best at being Mediocre"
This is funny. Being mediocre is trying to run half a competition and expecting to be first or on the top.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:34 pm Common @skillz you know better than that.

I am a small fish in this pond, when am I ever first, my goal is to be in the top 10 and support my team in the marathon. No need to always win.
Yet, you are quitting because you can't be in the top 3? Your actions speak louder than words.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:34 pm But I won't play a game that is rigged against my beliefs and forces me to run programs that I do not support.
I am not, nor is BG forcing anyone to do anything.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:34 pm We'll really see how long this "Mediocre" points system lasts and once other teams realize that to compete they have to do the same thing, I feel that will rule the day.
A mediocre point system that allows everyone competing in the top 100 (teams) or top 300 (individuals) is mediocre? Yet, a system that only rewards the top 10 is going all in on everyone? No, it's not. The new system allows everyone to earn BG points regardless of how big their team is, how much hardware they have, or what they choose to run. EVERYONE can literally get BG points on the board. Those with similar hardware, or similar beliefs, of whatever will have similar points and they will be able to compete for the next position amongst themselves.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:34 pm and don't worry about me having fun, there are other ways to do that without trying to compete is a supposed competitive event that is designed to "holds me back" because I like running projects that I support.
You are holding yourself back.
SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:34 pm But thanks for your efforts, you have done a great job here and it's sad that I have to "opt out" but I'm not gone.
Regards
SV
I am sad to see you go. As well as the rest of the XS crew who I see have also recently dropped out. Just think. Don't ya think it'll be a little more difficult for me to make changes, work stuff out, fix bugs, etc... if no one tries? This point system hasn't even been running for a week and you're already making actuations against it without even trying to learn how to be competitive in it. Keep in mind, this point system is the same point system that PrimeGrid uses for their Challenge Series which has been going on for many, many years. I participate in them and see people, small people "small" meaning not a lot of hardware, setting goals they can reach such as being in the top 100, top 50, top 200, so on and so forth. Rewarding only the top 10 will not allow that. So what are those people supposed to get excited over? Nothing?
bluestang wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:53 pm Considering a Team member went from 5th (if memory serves correctly) place in User Standings to ~23rd place after the points change, can't imagine why they are no longer participating in BG now. Especially after it was mentioned that positions would most likely stay the same after the change lol.
When I said the positions would mostly likely stay the same I was referring to the team standings. Not the individual standings. I can't possibly check everyone's individual stats and see that everyone is competing on every project everywhere. But those who are, those who were previously in rank 11th, or 12th, or higher who got no points despite being 11th, or 12th in ALL the projects have 0 BG points on the previous system. Should they be ranked below someone who is 10th on just ONE project? Let's see. There are 29 projects in BG currently. If one person was ranked 11th in 29th projects and another person was ranked 10th in just one project. Who should be higher in the overall leader boards?

It brings me back to what I was saying to SV. If you aren't winning then you aren't having fun. Right?

SystemViper wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:08 pm 100% disagree it is about "Competition"

yes if you choose to follow the points format and be competitive, keywords "be competitive"
You have to run all the programs even if you don't support them or feel they are not the goal for which you crunch.
by doing this you take the real reasons that most people crunch and tell then that to play you have to stop doing that.

to me it was well stated.
- I refuse to run in a competition that "holds me back" from the real reasons I crunch.

SV
You keep using the word competitive. But the word you actually mean is win.

Also, before I sign off. One last thing. I seen somewhere, where you posted "whats the point of being in the top 3" or something along those lines. While this isn't a jab at you, or trying to make you feel some type of way. However, I will like to say that I have plans to include some type of medals/trophies/badges or some sort for the top 3 or maybe the top 5 in all the projects, as well as overall for both teams and individuals and then a page/chart that shows how many of those medals/trophies/badges each team and individual has. This is a ways off from being implemented though.

Luckily Kiska has taken it upon himself to fix a lot of the problems the development team I hired to build this site left. A professional development team that runs a business specifically building web sites I might add. Who did a terrible job at a lot of stuff on the site. Where Kiska, who has little PHP experience was able to fix.

I want to hire a free-lancer programmer to start implementing the ideas I have to add to the site; but two things I've been waiting on. First, letting Kiska fix what he is capable of fixing on his own. He's doing this on his own time and for free. Once he gets to a point where he either doesn't have the time to or the tasks is beyond what he is capable of then secondly I need to save up some money so I can pay the freelance programmer to do the work.

One of my team mates (cellarnoise) was generous last month and donated $250 to the site. Which I have used to buy new, better hardware for the site. Including 5x 400GB SAS SSDs and a new (decommissioned) server of which most of the hardware was donated to me by ChelseaOilman. It consists of a Supermicro X9DRL-iF motherboard, pair of Xeon E5-2697 v2 CPUs (That I've changed out for a pair of E5-2667 V2s)* and 64GB of RAM. New system should be here in a few days and I can begin swapping parts around, getting it setup and ready to send to the datacenter for hosting.

**I downgraded to less cores, but higher clock speed CPUs. Because it's with my understanding that databases work better with faster CPUs and not CPUs with a lot of cores. So a less core CPU with a higher clock speed will perform better than a higher core CPU with more cores.
Do not send me PMs. The PM system here doesn't notify like it's supposed. Contact me through Discord (link at top) or post in the forums here. I check those regularly. At least until I figure out the PM notification problem.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by SystemViper »

see next post
Confuxed
SV
Last edited by SystemViper on Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by SystemViper »

@skillz

One main theme in your line in your post keeps buggin me,

you said, not me. competition is winning, please define winning.
My definition is winning is being able to compete at a high level to achieve my desired goal, as stated i like being in the top 10. I feel good if i can achieve that, that is mine for boinc games. it's not being #1 but yo have a chance

being able to compete and winning are totally different, but...

you ask for comentatary but you don't try to understand it instead you tell me to move along,
so i won't voice my opinion
so if you want and i'll stop trying to help.

My question IE post title. Is this points system fair?
isn't that a valid question and isn't my POV relevant, alas i am a cruncher?

To me it's more about understanding and trying to make it better, in my little world with my few rigs it "holds me back"!
Doesn't that alone merritt a little discussion, that if one person is "held back" from being reasonably able to compete (not win). It might also affect another member.

that's all i was asking
SV

Competition doesn't just create winners and success stories. It builds strong personalities, resilience and determination, a sense of humor and humility. It builds high-performing entrepreneurs, executives and business leaders. It makes us strong.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by Ian&Steve C. »

I too would like to be competitive in the PG challenges, but I don't want to be forced to run PrimeGrid! so unfair of them! :lol:

it's clear that Skillz wants this competition to be rooted in supporting all (active) boinc projects. It can help encourage users who wouldn't normally run some projects to branch out and spread the love, so to speak.

think about the old system hypothetically, logically. say you had two teams, A and B. Team A contributes to all projects but a small contribution that puts them in 11th place on all. now say Team B contributes to only one project but in 10th place. In the old system, Team B would be ranked higher overall by contributing to only 1 project. That's not the kind of competition that Skillz wants to run, so giving everyone some points for lower ranks helps even it out for teams ranked below 10, but with a wider variety overall.

the goal of this particular competition is to reward contributing to many projects. it's just the way it is, you don't have to like it. if you don't want to contribute in that way, then don't.

your previous comments about mediocrity were hilarious. stoneageman was in first place by a wide margin (roughly 3000 points) before deleting his account, are you suggesting he got there by being "mediocre"? LOL.
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by SystemViper »

Ian&Steve C. wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:25 pm I too would like to be competitive in the PG challenges, but I don't want to be forced to run PrimeGrid! so unfair of them! :lol:
Is PrimeGrid changing their points system in the middle/end of the season. NO
Were you asked to voice idea's for the growth of PG? again NO
don't distract from the point of conversation, is the BG points system fair.


it's clear that Skillz wants this competition to be rooted in supporting all (active) boinc projects. It can help encourage users who wouldn't normally run some projects to branch out and spread the love, so to speak.
When did he say that? It's BG's choice, not debatable so what are you talking about?
again distraction from main topic
.

think about the old system hypothetically, logically. say you had two teams, A and B. Team A contributes to all projects but a small contribution that puts them in 11th place on all. now say Team B contributes to only one project but in 10th place. In the old system, Team B would be ranked higher overall by contributing to only 1 project. That's not the kind of competition that Skillz wants to run, so giving everyone some points for lower ranks helps even it out for teams ranked below 10, but with a wider variety overall.
Well at least you're talking about the points system, i will respond to that later.

the goal of this particular competition is to reward contributing to many projects. it's just the way it is, you don't have to like it. if you don't want to contribute in that way, then don't.
Again if your point is that your changing the points system mid stream and you feel that it's a "just the way it is" situation, hey I can accept that but don't ask for comments and really try not to listen a moment.

your previous comments about mediocrity were hilarious. stoneageman was in first place by a wide margin (roughly 3000 points) before deleting his account, are you suggesting he got there by being "mediocre"? LOL.
My question isn't about anybody, stony is his own man, i speak from my perspective and how it the fundamental change to the points system affects people who like to only crunch projects they believe in.
It's like WTF, so we can't have a discussion on the points system being fair to everyone, at least if you were honest and replied, "we think this points system is the best way to move forward and were going to give it a try, plus we don't want any discussion of how it affects you, I can handle it, trust me,
but shucking and jiving, attaching the questioner isn't the way to solve this.

I just thing it "holds me back from competing, not winning" that is my reality and thought maybe BG didn't think about that part, woops pardon me.


But your response is...
"it's just the way it is, you don't have to like it. if you don't want to contribute in that way, then don't."
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Re: is New BG Points System fair?

Post by Skillz »

SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm @skillz

One main theme in your line in your post keeps buggin me,

you said, not me. competition is winning, please define winning.
My definition is winning is being able to compete at a high level to achieve my desired goal, as stated i like being in the top 10. I feel good if i can achieve that, that is mine for boinc games. it's not being #1 but yo have a chance
Please tell me how you intend to compete at a high level while only participating in half the competition, Steve. Please.

You want to be in the Top 10? Nothing, absolutely nothing is stopping you from achieving those goals on the projects you want to run. Each project is tracked individually. You want to be top 10 on your specific projects? Go for it. You want to be top 10 overall, then you need to run the overall competition not just half of it.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm being able to compete and winning are totally different, but...

you ask for comentatary but you don't try to understand it instead you tell me to move along,
so i won't voice my opinion
so if you want and i'll stop trying to help.
I am not telling you to move along. You're just not reading anything. You're not even giving the new system a chance. Literally as SOON as the points changed you grabbed your pitch forks and came running to the forums to complain.

Had you waited, you would have noticed that the points were incorrect for a few of the teams where some projects were somehow counted double or triple. Once Kiska (well Ian&Steve is the one who discovered the discrepancies) fixed it the points changed drastically between those teams effected.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm My question IE post title. Is this points system fair?
isn't that a valid question and isn't my POV relevant, alas i am a cruncher?
Please, for the love of God Steve. Tell me what is not fair.

While also telling me this, also let me know how it's not fair that only the top 10 teams (or individuals) were able to score points previously. IE: Explain this to me.

Team ABC ranks 11th in ALL 30 projects.
Team XYC ranks 10th in ONE project and has no presence in any of the other projects.

Old system. Team XYC would be above ABC with 1 BG point in the overall ranks. Team ABC would be in 11th.
New system. Team XYC is below ABC with 270 points. Team ABC is in 10th place now with 7875 points.

Doesn't that make a more fair system for all teams, not just catering to those who are in the top 10?
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm To me it's more about understanding and trying to make it better, in my little world with my few rigs it "holds me back"!
Doesn't that alone merritt a little discussion, that if one person is "held back" from being reasonably able to compete (not win). It might also affect another member.

that's all i was asking
SV
The fact that you keep bringing up how many systems to have is irrelevant. Most everyone has a "few" rigs as you put it. Unless they had enough rigs to put them in the top 10, they wouldn't be ranked. So for you to claim you have a "few" systems, now YOU can get points in ALL the projects you intend to crunch regardless if you are in 1st place, 5th place or 250th place. You got points on the board and can compare it to everyone else.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm Competition doesn't just create winners and success stories. It builds strong personalities, resilience and determination, a sense of humor and humility. It builds high-performing entrepreneurs, executives and business leaders. It makes us strong.
It does. So how fun would it be if you can't compete in the top 10? The old system only if you could make it to the top 10 were you able to compete with those in the top 10. Now, regardless if you are in the top 10, top 20, top 100, you can compete with those who have similar computational power as you do.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Is PrimeGrid changing their points system in the middle/end of the season. NO
Were you asked to voice idea's for the growth of PG? again NO
don't distract from the point of conversation, is the BG points system fair.
PG's Challenge Series is not in BETA. It's not a work in progress. It's been running for years. Apples to oranges man.
Ian&Steve C. wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:25 pm it's clear that Skillz wants this competition to be rooted in supporting all (active) boinc projects. It can help encourage users who wouldn't normally run some projects to branch out and spread the love, so to speak.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm When did he say that? It's BG's choice, not debatable so what are you talking about?
again distraction from main topic
.
I said that here:
Skillz wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:07 pm It promotes teams and individuals to crunch ALL projects which is what these competitions are about. Bringing awareness to all the BOINC projects especially the smaller, lesser known projects so they can get new members to crunch the information they are researching.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Again if your point is that your changing the points system mid stream and you feel that it's a "just the way it is" situation, hey I can accept that but don't ask for comments and really try not to listen a moment.
I will say this again. The site is in BETA. Changes are going to be happening a lot until we get to a system that works. Try giving something a chance before bringing the pitch forks. I've already explained to you numerous times the reason for changing the points system. It's to give the top 100 teams (instead of top 10) BG points for competing. Its for giving the top 300 individuals (instead of top 10) BG points for competing.
SystemViper wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm It's like WTF, so we can't have a discussion on the points system being fair to everyone, at least if you were honest and replied, "we think this points system is the best way to move forward and were going to give it a try, plus we don't want any discussion of how it affects you, I can handle it, trust me,
but shucking and jiving, attaching the questioner isn't the way to solve this.

I just thing it "holds me back from competing, not winning" that is my reality and thought maybe BG didn't think about that part, woops pardon me.
How does it stop you from competing? How? You only want to run a select few projects. You can compete in them regardless of what the point structure is. BG tracks each project individually.
Do not send me PMs. The PM system here doesn't notify like it's supposed. Contact me through Discord (link at top) or post in the forums here. I check those regularly. At least until I figure out the PM notification problem.
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